Interesting. Not surprising, either.

Interesting - a Republican cover group. I've so far yet to meet a woman who supported Hillary and is now supporting McCain. But I'll keep my informal sampling open and let you know if I find anybody.

I still know a few women who say they'll now support McCain over Obama. But they're not as loopy as the Clinton delegate that Dowd wrote about yesterday. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/opinion/29dowd.html

I can't read Maureen Dowd. I didn't like her much before, and the primary sent her right off the rails.

I think this is really smart work, Amanda. Fortunately I think this'll blow over soon.

I saw some talking heads complaining about the attention Obama paid to Clinton's billionnaire supporters last week, but from where I sit that's the most vulnerable sector of the fragile coalition we have on the left. If he succeeded in bringing them over, we're in really good shape.

Look at those shiny new paragraph breaks! Thanks, Ben!

shauna, I don't necessarily disagree about Dowd. But in this instance, it's the facts and not the accompanying opinion that are telling.

I just pinched myself and I am real. I am a Hillary supporter who will not support Obama. It's about more than being bitter that the more qualified woman was cast aside for the less qualified man. Read this

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/2008/06/29/pumas-and-sexism/

Huh. I was a Clinton supporter, and I don't much care for Obama, but I honestly didn't believe that such people as Amy H. existed (no offense Amy). In fact, I was getting pretty tired with JTC for making the claim they did (sorry JTC, guess you're right). If I thought that not supporting Obama would make any difference to politics in the long term, I might not vote for him, but I don't. Politics always comes down to the lesser of two evils, and Obama's the guy this time.

They do exist. One is a very dear friend of mine who has volunteered by my side for years. She not only won't support him, but she may also leave the party entirely. Her husband already has.

I'm sorry, the existence of Amy H. notwithstanding, I'm still really skeptical that there's an organized faction of real Democrats opposing Obama. I know there are people out there nursing their wounds. I know the primary got really personal, and some people felt like Obama pulled one over on their friends. But the website you link to, Amy, seems just silly. You don't make Ralph Nader's argument for two-party reform the preamble to the claim that the one virtuous politician in the race -- Hillary Clinton -- got cheated.

Bitterness is understandable. But looking to the future, who will represent your interests better? Who will appoint better people to the bench? Who will work to pass laws that support families?

shauna, I think it depends on what you mean by "real Democrats." There are a lot of people who supported Hillary who might support McCain over Obama. And many of them are registered Democrats. I would agree that it's strange that anyone with true concerns for issues such as freedom of choice for abortion, etc., would decide to support McCain over Obama. But they're out there. The PUMA group may very well be a red herring, but I think there is in fact some disorganized opposition to Obama by Hillary supporters. Maybe such disaffected Hillary supporters will come to their senses when they realize how GOP boosters want to use them and cast them aside.

JTC, I agree. This is a more credible Democratic sounding board for the real anger that is out there:

click here

I'm crossing my fingers that this works!

Of course it didn't. You can copy and paste the link anyway.

http://iownmyvote.com/

Even for the few who do exist, I have trouble believing that there are that many women who are so short-sighted, so selfish, and so stuck on their own hurt feelings that they'd throw women's rights and the lives of the population of Iran under the bus to make a point about what? That the proper order is white women and then black men and then black women?

And watching Violet Sacks lose her mind has been a real loss for me. I feel openly betrayed that she'd sooner sacrifice my right to have an abortion than to see Obama win the Presidency.

I don't think I am short-sighted, selfish or stuck in my hurt feelings. Obama can't hold my uterus hostage and get my vote. It isn't about the correct order, it is about the fact that Obama was not so much elected as chosen by the DNC. It is about the fact that we obviously find sexism acceptable because if the same things that were said about Hillary's sex had been said about Obama's race we would have heard more than a pin drop. I think Obama does not have the experience to be President. I don't think he even likes this country that's why he wants to change everything about it.

Shauna - where did the Ralph Nader two-party reform comment come from? I didn't see anything about that in the article I linked.

I think "stuck on your feelings" is sexist. I will say I do think you are short sighted. I agree that I don't think Obama has much experience. And, to piss all the Obama supporters off, I think the best case scenario is that his talk of change and being outside of Washington is a bunch of hooey and he gets into office and disappoints them all by being just another politician. That said, I would still rather an inexperienced politician full of hooey than one who would continue to erode personal liberties, work to ban abortion and birth control, continue to oppress gays and minorities... etc, etc, etc. And I can't believe you wouldn't. The WHOLE DAMN WORLD is full of sexism. Do you really think electing a super sexist is better and more meaningful somehow than electing a run-of-the-mill sexist? Are you that interested in cutting off your nose to spite your face? Who do you think is more likely to listen to feminist concerns, Obama or McCain? Cause those are the guys we're dealing with, and we know McCain is cool with calling women cunts. He's the guy you're going to vote for? I'm sorry... I just don't understand this. It doesn't seem rational or pragmatic to me.

I don't think he even likes this country that's why he wants to change everything about it.

Amy, I have no idea where you get this from. Policy positions or speeches, please? It's genuinely confusing to me.

The rhetoric on Violet Sacks' website was very similar to Ralph Nader's. I highly recommend "An Unreasonable Man," and of course the man himself is making plenty of appearances since he's running again this year. I thoroughly enjoy him, because he's unstoppably honest. When asked why he only takes aim at Obama by George S. last Sunday, he blinked and said that of course the Republicans were the worst of the worst, we'd be in far worse shape electing McCain, it's just that people only ever ask about Obama.

Woah, I didn't even notice that comment Shauna. If you were really a feminist, Amy, you'd be hard pressed to find much you like about the structure of this country either. It was founded with oppression against women and minorities built in. You simultaneously call for an overhaul of the democratic party, about as traditional as it gets, and criticize somebody for not liking America as it is. Totally incoherent argument.

Well I guess I'm just another stupid female who won't be voting for Obama.

I think his church was absolutely anti-American (God Damn America - anyone?) and the fact that he was a member for 20 years speaks greatly. I think the flag pin, the pledge, the anthem, Michelle's first time ever comments by themselves are little things but taken together I think it shows his true contempt for our country. I have a problem with that.

I love America. That's doesn't mean that I think it gets everything right.

I never said I was a feminist by the way. I guess you can't be a feminist and not vote for Obama, sweetie. I never said I was voting for McCain either. I may vote for him or a third party candidate, I may write-in Hillary, I may stay home but what I will not be doing is voting for Obama.

Yes, clarifying that you're not a feminist by calling me "sweetie" is totally necessary. You were the one who said Obama was sexist and that's why you didn't want to vote for him, so I guess it was a totally bizarre conclusion on my part to think you were arguing about feminist issues. Especially since the "Pumas" are ostensibly making some kind of feminist statement by not supporting Obama. You seem to have very little in common with the argument you originally came here to support. For the record, I didn't say you were stupid, I said you were being irrational about this issue. And now you're being personally insulting and condescending, just as you were presumably critiquing the democratic party for.

This really irritates me, because I hate the arguments that Obama supporters make about Clinton fanatics being racist, but lord if what you've written doesn't make me suspect racism is at the bottom of your concerns. Seriously, wearing a flag pin makes you a good American? Attending a church where the minister critiques the structural racism of the nation using the fiery rhetoric that often characterizes religious speeches makes you a bad American? It's all so silly and reductive, and I just don't believe for a second that you've been tracking what the other candidate's ministers have said, or how often their wives have waxed rapturously about the amazing wonderland America is, or whether or not their lapels are suitably decorated with American flair.

It should be about issues. Not who has the most American swag pinned to his suspenders. If you don't care about the fate of this country, why go through the hassle and expense and personal smear campaigns to be its president? Clinton and Obama are virtually the same on almost every important issue. They want to change America in almost exactly the same ways, ways that I support.

It has become clear that you are just spewing the talking points of Fox News. I don't believe you ever supported Clinton, at least not for reasons I can agree with. I'm not even sure you're a real person. I've never seen you before on Offsprung, and I think you're just a troll.

No, the sweetie comment was about what Obama said to the reporter. I don't think he is much of a champion of women and women's rights.

Oh, you've figured me out, I'm a big hairy RACIST as is everyone who isn't for Obama. It's not about who's bleeding red white and blue, it's all those little things taken together and I did find his pastor's statements extremely offensive. I did support Clinton. I do not watch fox news. I don't even have cable. The stupid thing was probably being defensive but that seems to be the first thing that the Obamabots bring out - the only people who aren't supporting him are stupid and/or racist. I don't know if there is anyway to track history on Offsprung. I have been here before but not regularly for a while. I am certainly not a troll but I guess that goes with the territory of anyone who doesn't agree with you must be a racist, Fox News watching troll.

I apologize for my mistaken belief you were on Offsprung only for this discussion.

If you are not a feminist, I can't see why you care about women's rights. As for the rest of it, it doesn't seem like a rational discussion is possible, especially since you seem to lump me in with the "Obamabots" when that's pretty much the furthest thing from the truth, and it's not a particularly useful term when trying to have a civil discussion about politics anyway.

You are in every way entitled to your opinions and to vote for whom you choose. In my opinion, however, you are only providing support for the people who believe that women who hold your position are shrill and overly emotional. And as a former supporter of Clinton who is not overly fond of Obama, I wish to distance myself from your arguments and your manner of presenting them as much as possible.

I wish you well in your efforts to improve the country in the way you see fit.